85 RX7 GSL-SE WON'T START

[John F]

The car was sputtering for about a week. Not so much at idle as during
acceleration. Then one day while getting on the "on ramp" for the highway
going 60mph it just quit. It's a standard so I'm surprised it wouldn't even
attempt to kick over... even while going 60mph. Had to tow it home.

The car now will only start with starter fluid. I checked the fuel pump,
it's pumping. I changed the fuel filter. I even disconnected the fuel line
at the firewall, it's pumping out gas. New cap, rotor, plugs. Checked
spark -OK. After a while of cranking I checked the plugs, they were wet with
gas. The car won't even stutter, not even a cough. But with starter fluid
starts right up as long as I'm spraying it in. WHAT THE HELL??? Anyone?
Thanks...

[Amur_]

Post by John F
The car was sputtering for about a week. Not so much at idle as during
acceleration. Then one day while getting on the "on ramp" for the highway
going 60mph it just quit. It's a standard so I'm surprised it wouldn't even
attempt to kick over... even while going 60mph. Had to tow it home.
The car now will only start with starter fluid. I checked the fuel pump,
it's pumping. I changed the fuel filter. I even disconnected the fuel line
at the firewall, it's pumping out gas. New cap, rotor, plugs. Checked
spark -OK. After a while of cranking I checked the plugs, they were wet with
gas. The car won't even stutter, not even a cough. But with starter fluid
starts right up as long as I'm spraying it in. WHAT THE HELL??? Anyone?
Thanks...

The engine/electronics on your GSL-SE are virtually identical to
what's on the series 4 RX-7s, which is what I'm driving. And my
mechanic drives a GSL-SE, too. So one way or the other, I'm sure we'll
get her back on the road. :-)


I wrote what's below and then remembered this: your problem, believe
it or not, may just be due to poor grounding. Seriously. The
electrical assembly on the 7s was really bad. And since your car spent
a week struggling, I suspect that whatever grounding you do have
(presumably stock) slowly deteriorated to the point where it couldn't
keep the motor running... Have you added any ground wires to your car?



http://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php?p=497789&postcount=2


See the part about di-electric grease? IGNORE it. Don't use
di-electric grease - I was wrong. This grease actual inhibits current
flow. >_<


---
You need 3 things to get the engine to run - fuel, spark and
compression. You've got fuel.

Spark? You have it, but how strong is it? Have you checked the
coils? The plug wires? How new are the wires? How new are the plugs?

And have you done a compression check? Normally, when a rotary goes,
it just goes. A week of sputtering suggests to me that your engine is
still fine inside (as opposed to an apex seal failing.)

Another possible cause is a vacuum leak. A huge one to cause that.

Oh, and do NOT use starter fluid to start/run your engine. VERY BAD.
:-) I realize it's the only way to get running, but you're taking an
awful risk. You can do plenty of troubleshooting with the engine stopped.



Anyway, my #1 guess is that the cause is either grounding or
otherwise electrical in nature.


Do you have a copy of the Factory Service Manual to use as a guide
for testing components?

www.iluvmyrx7.com

You'll find scanned copied of the FSM for you 7 here, for free.
Download to your heart's content.


Hope that helps. :)

ttyl,
Amur_

[John F]

Post by Amur_
Oh, and do NOT use starter fluid to start/run your engine. VERY BAD.
:-) I realize it's the only way to get running, but you're taking an
awful risk. > Amur_

What kind of trouble might that cause... I'm afraid to ask... :-(

[Amur_]

Post by John F

Post by Amur_
Oh, and do NOT use starter fluid to start/run your engine. VERY BAD.
:-) I realize it's the only way to get running, but you're taking an
awful risk. > Amur_

What kind of trouble might that cause... I'm afraid to ask... :-(

Crap! :-D

You've just caught me perpetuating a myth (although I didn't find
that out until a few moments ago.)

Y'see, in the FC forum at www.rx7club.com, once in a while someone
will make a post similar to yours - their car won't start/run on it's
own without help from starter fluid. And someone usually replies with,
"Oh, no! Don't do that!" But they never explain why not.
So I see your post and think, "Oh, no! Don't do that!" And I post
the same. And now you ask why and ruin my night. ;-D


So what follows is my exchange with Kevin Landers at Rotary
Resurrection (www.rotaryresurrection.com)...

Post by John F

Post by Amur_
is my original message

-- preceeds his replies



-------------------

Post by John F

Post by Amur_
I have occasionally seen it said in threads that spraying starter

fluid into the motor while starting, and doing that to keep a motor
running, is bad.

--really? says who?

Post by John F

Post by Amur_
What usually isn't said is why.
Do you know, and wouldja tell me?

--I can't think of any reason. I mean, think about it. That's it's only
purpose in life, is to be sprayed into an engine to cause rapid
starting. Most of it is straight ether I believe, which is more
combustible than gas. When starting and with light throttle/revving
(trying to start and keep an engine running) there is no load on the
engine, and I see no real way that damage could occur. The worse thing
that'll happen is you could flood the engine with too much fluid, or you
could not spray enough and it'll lean out and stall. You can't cause
detonation or anything without significant load and intake temps,
neither of which are present under startup conditions.

Post by John F

Post by Amur_
I'm not planning on doing it myself. Rather, I discouraged someone on

the rotary newsgroup from doing it, and now he wants to know why
(worried that he may have hurt his engine.) And I don't know what to
tell him.

--I don't know what to tell *you* either

Post by John F

Post by Amur_
Enlighten me?

--I wouldnt make a habit of it unless it were necessary, but I see no
reason that it would hurt if you're troubleshooting some fuel delivery
issue or just trying to start a flooded motor. Now, carb cleaner, might
be a different issue. There are solvents in that stuff, thus it's claim
to be a cleaner. And solvents can cause excess wear to rapidly moving
parts and sealing surfaces such as seals and housings. Like a lapping
effect, if you're familiar with machining techniques. Even that, for a
short period of time like startup, wouldnt be enough to hurt anything
though.
-------------------------------


So there ya go. You're not hurting anything. And you've helped
teach me (and probably a few others) something new. Actually, you've
taught me two things. The second being to keep my mouth shut unless I'm
certain that I know what I'm talking about. :-D

Any progress to share yet?

ttyl,
Amur_

[John F]

Any progress to share yet? > Amur_

Wow, that's a lot said Amur :-) As far as my RX7, as it turns out the
compression is only reading about 15lbs now. So I guess I blew a seal at
some point. But at what point? Would my car sputter for a week as a sign of
low compression, and then quit? And though I didn't check it when it first
quit, I could swear the compression was fine, or at least way better because
when I tried to start it I could feel the compression while turning it over.
Then after trying the starter fluid a half dozen or so times over a couple
of days I noticed a "feeling" of no compression while turning the engine
over. It just kind of whirred quickly and all too easily. I wonder if I blew
the seal while using the starter fluid... :-(

[Tim Herbst]

Post by John F
compression is only reading about 15lbs now. So I guess I blew a seal at
some point.

DO NOT DESPAIR!!!

Yet. Maybe later, but not yet. "Compression is only reading 15 lbs" on a
three faces? To do that you would have to blow multiple seals at about the
same time. More likely you just washed all the oil off your apex seals and
can recover everything with an ATF treatment. I can't give you a perfect
link to a complete discussion on this subject but Felix' FAQ should be in
your bookmark collection. If not:
<http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/cfaqmenu.html#FCF>

Of course, you first need to deal with your presumed electrical gremlin...

Tim Herbst
94 VR Base
04 TG replaced the bone-stock 85 GSL-SE

[Amur_]

Post by John F
As far as my RX7, as it turns out the
compression is only reading about 15lbs now. So I guess I blew a seal at
some point. But at what point? Would my car sputter for a week as a sign of
low compression, and then quit? And though I didn't check it when it first
quit, I could swear the compression was fine, or at least way better because
when I tried to start it I could feel the compression while turning it over.

To this, Kevin wrote:

------
Compression is totally independent of control system issues like
hesitations, backfires, etc. Tell him to unflood it or roll it off, blow
all the BS out of it, and then repeat his compression test.
------

'BS' in this case referring to gas/starter fluid. You must restore
the thin film of oil within the motor to restore compression, and you
can't do that until you eject the gas/fluid that's already in there. A
flooded rotary will almost always read like a completely blown motor.
No compression is no compression, whether it's due to no oil sealing the
chambers or no intact apex seals on the rotors.

To eject the gas, you have to crank the motor with the fuel injection
system disabled. The excess gas/fluid will be thrown out the exhaust
system (or spark plugs if you remove them first - either is fine,) while
the oiling system delivers fresh oil to the chambers.

What is sometimes not mentioned about de-flooding is that after you
have your motor running again, you should change the oil. It will have
been thinned by the gas (or starter fluid or your case) and so overall
oil pressure will be lower, as the oil won't lubricate as well as it's
supposed to.


Unflooding your car: http://www.rx7.com/tech/unflood-se.html


Do you have the Factory Service Manual for you 7 yet?

http://www.wankel.net/%7Ekrwright/cars/rx7/85_manual.html

(another source) ;-D

Post by John F
Then after trying the starter fluid a half dozen or so times over a couple
of days I noticed a "feeling" of no compression while turning the engine
over. It just kind of whirred quickly and all too easily. I wonder if I blew
the seal while using the starter fluid... :-(

You did not blow a seal using the starter fluid. It doesn't work
that way. Remember what Kevin wrote about how detonation is virtually
impossible when cranking?

Did you break a seal? Possibly. You won't be able to tell until you
de-flood that engine...


ttyl,
Amur_

[John F]

Post by Amur_
Did you break a seal? Possibly. You won't be able to tell until you
de-flood that engine... ttyl, Amur_

IT WORKED!!! Thankyou Amur, Kevin, and Tim. To all those who may be in my
position let it stand for the record that my car has ressurected from the
dead!!! I do not need a new engine :-)

After reading your posts, it sounded logical. I took the car to the correct
mechanic this time, one who seemed to know about this trick (as opposed to
the other ones who said I need a new engine) and he did exactly as
mentioned...

He removed the spark plugs, disconnected the fuel line at the fire wall by
clamping it closed. Then cranked the engine over several times for about 30
seconds each time(or so it seemed) which blew out all the old gas & starter
fluid and whatever that was flooded in my car. Then he squirted about 8
squirts of oil into the engine through the spark plug holes. He then
completey dried off the plugs (compressed air) and put em back in. He then
cranked the engine over some more... and then... as if by magic... it
started!!! Blew a lot of smoke for a while, then calmed down, running just
as usual, compression had been restored!!!

From what he said and I already gathered, the car was pumping way too much
fuel in, which I already knew cause the car always ran rough, easily flooded
and smelled like gas all the time. And though I think it was(is) an injector
problem, The mechanic recommends to change the temperature sensor?, which
supposedly goes bad a lot, instructing the engine to take in way too much
fuel. He said the problem may come back until I fix that... sensor?
injectors? but for now at least my car runs as before, and I DO NOT need to
rebuild/replace the engine :-) and now i'm off to find this flooding
culprit!!! Suggestions welcome...

[John Haskey]

Post by John F
The car was sputtering for about a week. Not so much at idle as during
acceleration. Then one day while getting on the "on ramp" for the highway
going 60mph it just quit. It's a standard so I'm surprised it wouldn't even
attempt to kick over... even while going 60mph. Had to tow it home.
The car now will only start with starter fluid. I checked the fuel pump,
it's pumping. I changed the fuel filter. I even disconnected the fuel line
at the firewall, it's pumping out gas. New cap, rotor, plugs. Checked
spark -OK. After a while of cranking I checked the plugs, they were wet with
gas. The car won't even stutter, not even a cough. But with starter fluid
starts right up as long as I'm spraying it in. WHAT THE HELL??? Anyone?
Thanks...

My GSL-SE recently died on me in a similiar way. Turned out the 'trailing
ignitor' was bad. YMMV...

---john.

[Gord Beaman]

Post by John F
The car was sputtering for about a week. Not so much at idle as during
acceleration. Then one day while getting on the "on ramp" for the highway
going 60mph it just quit. It's a standard so I'm surprised it wouldn't even
attempt to kick over... even while going 60mph. Had to tow it home.
The car now will only start with starter fluid. I checked the fuel pump,
it's pumping. I changed the fuel filter. I even disconnected the fuel line
at the firewall, it's pumping out gas. New cap, rotor, plugs. Checked
spark -OK. After a while of cranking I checked the plugs, they were wet with
gas. The car won't even stutter, not even a cough. But with starter fluid
starts right up as long as I'm spraying it in. WHAT THE HELL??? Anyone?
Thanks...

Well, this might not be of much help but I had both an 83 and an
85 RX-7 which had the problem of failing to start OCCASIONALLY
(abt once in 5 or 6 starts). No kick, no nothing no matter how
long you cranked UNTIL you released the starter momentarily then
resumed cranking at which point it'd start immediately...never
did find out why...

Another point, in extreme cold I had lots of starting trouble
UNLESS I took the plugs out and heated the hell outta them, then
it'd start instantly even in bitter cold.
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)